ASP.NET MVC Is Not Part of ASP.NET 3.5 SP1 mvc, 0 comments suggest edit

I wanted to clear up a bit of confusion I’ve seen around the web about ASP.NET MVC and the .NET Framework 3.5 Service Pack 1. ASP.NET MVC was not released as part of SP1. I repeat, ASP.NET 3.5 SP1 does not include ASP.NET MVC.

What was released with SP1 was the ASP.NET Routing feature, which is in use by both ASP.NET MVC and Dynamic Data. The Routing feature is my first Framework RTM feature to ship at Microsoft! We also shipped a bunch of other features such as Dynamic Data, and this short list of breaking changes.

I hope that clears things up and I apologize for the confusion.

And for my next feat, I’m going to try and read your mind, oooooh! Right now, you’re thinking something along the lines of,

Ok, so ASP.NET MVC didn’t ship as part of SP1. When is it going to ship?!

Good question! Scott Hanselman once quipped that it would ship in a month that ends in “-ber”. He also recently quipped,

Anyway, Phil has always said that MVC is on its own schedule and will ship when its done. Possibly when Duke Nukem Forever ships.

That Scott, he’s so full of quips. ;)

In any case, he’s right in that MVC is pretty much on its own schedule since the first RTM version will be a fully supported out-of-band release, much like Atlas was back in the day.

The MVC team really doesn’t want to rush the first release. We’re taking the time to do the best we can in laying the groundwork for future releases. My hope is that we’ll have very few, if any, moments where we we want to make a breaking change because we didn’t provide the right amount of extensibility.

At the same time, we also really want to get ASP.NET MVC in your hands in an RTM form soon so you can start using it for your clients who are uncomfortable working with a beta technology. Trust me, we are not in the business of the “perpetual-beta” and are working towards an RTM. As Scott pointed out, our hope is to get it out before the end of the year. But as most of you know about how software scheduling works, anything can happen between now and tomorrow.


As we move towards the tail end of the development cycle, we’ve been pushing hard to get our bug/approved change request count down, which I recently twittered about. I asked Carl, our tester, to print out an Excel graph of our bug count over time. It feels really good to walk by his office every day and see the line trending down towards zero (though occasionally, it ticks up a bit). I think it’s a huge motivator to try and fix and close out work items.

At the same time, this graph is for our benefit only and not something we’re being evaluated on by any managers, which is extremely important. One of the dangers of any metric is that developers are smart and they’ll do what they can to optimize the metric. For example, the danger with this metric is that we might be tempted to not log feature requests and bugs. Joel Spolsky wrote about this phenomena when measuring the performance of knowledge workers a while back,

But in the absence of 100% supervision, workers have an incentive to “work to the measurement,” concerning themselves solely with the measurement and not with the actual value or quality of their work.

Since we’re the only ones who care about this graph (nobody is looking over our shoulder) and QA is very motivated to find bugs, I think it’s a safe to use as a fun source of motivation. For the most part, watching the graph move towards zero feels good. Those are the metrics I like, the ones that inspire positive feelings among the team and a sense of forward motion and momentum. :)

Tags: aspnetmvc , aspnet , schedule

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15 responses

  1. Avatar for Sid Savara
    Sid Savara August 14th, 2008

    Was the Duke Nukem Forever reference really fair? Come on ;)
    I like watching the number of open issues/bugs/whatever you want to call them plummet as well.

  2. Avatar for James Snape
    James Snape August 14th, 2008

    Phil, will you let us know when you hit ZBB? Thanks.

  3. Avatar for Andy
    Andy August 14th, 2008

    At RTM of MVC I hope there is an RTM compatible version of Dynamic Data from day one. That would really complete the picture of technologies for me, having embraced the coupling of Entity Framework and MVC.

  4. Avatar for Dan F
    Dan F August 14th, 2008
    I asked Carl, our tester, to print out an Excel graph of our bug count over time.

    You print the bug list? Shouldn't that be zapped onto an LCD? Perhaps with some sexy WPF animations and sound effects when it changes? You could even zap it to one of those cool Nabaztag Wi-Fi bunnies. Think of the trees :-)
    On second thoughts... don't do that. Keep coding like the ninjas you all are and RTM that sucker quickly.

  5. Avatar for Timothy Khouri
    Timothy Khouri August 14th, 2008

    You guys are doing some seriously good stuff, and at the speed you're hammering out bugs, you'll be done with a solid project in no time. (If I would only stop bugging you for features :P)
    Question: When you say "MVC 2", does that mean MVC shipped with .NET 4.0 (or whatever the next big launch ship will be)?

  6. Avatar for iamybj
    iamybj August 14th, 2008

    Is the atals dead??

  7. Avatar for Steven Harman
    Steven Harman August 14th, 2008

    Atlas was folded into the .NET framework and is now known as ASP.NET AJAX.
    >> QA is very motivated to find bugs
    Careful there Phil. Remember that QA's purpose is not explicitly to find bugs, but to ensure quality - and the two don't always go hand in hand. I know that you know that... but wanted to point it out just to clear up any confusion. :)

  8. Avatar for Jamie
    Jamie August 14th, 2008

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE try to get a good subcontroller infrastructure in there with the release. That seems so much more important than AJAX helpers and other things that don't affect the overall structuring of an application. I know you guys have said before that might have to wait for the next release, but PLEASE rethink it...

  9. Avatar for Angel Escobedo
    Angel Escobedo August 14th, 2008

    Oh! QAssurance.. really nice job from them, thinking that products offers are comming from microsoft, might it been a softly perfectly choise from clients, by the way about using beta in a software development, i think that doesnt matter if you have a complex idea that what are you doing, so in my case i left to take a fast development in webforms cause, they told me, no time for researching, cause in MVC Views i dont have the same controlers that in webforms i have, so i'll be waiting, some day... i will moved to when i finish to do first!... in webforms (:

  10. Avatar for Elijah Manor
    Elijah Manor August 14th, 2008

    Keep it up... I look forward to Preview 5 or RTM :)

  11. Avatar for Howard
    Howard August 15th, 2008

    Hi Phil!
    What is the difference between a beta, a CTP, a fully-supported out of band release, an RTM feature, and a service pack?

  12. Avatar for haacked
    haacked August 15th, 2008

    @Howard I answered your question in a new blog post.

  13. Avatar for foobar
    foobar August 16th, 2008

    -- Jamie
    > try to get a good subcontroller infrastructure in there with
    > the release.
    I second Jamie.

  14. Avatar for Shiju Varghese
    Shiju Varghese August 17th, 2008

    Please provide SUBCONTROLLER infrastructure. This is necessary while developing real world applications.

  15. Avatar for MasterChef
    MasterChef August 18th, 2008

    So now that Duke Nukem is going RTM, can we have a date for MVC? :)