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A Few Questions For Subtext Users

Subtext Logo If you are using Subtext, or are using .TEXT and plan to use Subtext I need to ask you a few questions.  Please answer as your answers may determine whether or not some features are removed for the sake of simplification.

These questions revolve around the Advanced Options when creating or editing a post in the admin tool.

1. Do you use the Title URL field?

Now before you answer, let me explain what this field is used for. You might have values in that column, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it is in use. 

The Title Url field is used to specify an ALTERNATE URL for the title of a blog post.  Ordinarily, the title of the blog post links to the blog post itself.  Older versions of .TEXT and Subtext would update that field with the URL to the blog post, which was unnecessary since we could generate that URL on the fly.

In my humble opinion, it is a bad idea to have the title of a blog post link elsewhere as it is confusing to users. Unless there are large numbers of users who have specific needs for this feature, I would like to remove it.

2. Do you ever enter values for Source Name and Source Url for a blog post?

Scott Watermasysk, the original creator of .TEXT (Subtext, I am your father) graciously pointed out the use of the Source and SourceUrl fields in the comments of this post. These are used for the optional RSS <source> element. It’s for properly attributing credit for a link when republishing a post from somewhere else (see the RSS spec). I’ve never seen any aggregators make use of this unfortunately and most people simply attribute others in the body of the post, so it is still a candidate for removal if nobody makes use of it. As far as I can tell, these fields are intended for comments, not for blog posts.  However the admin section does have text fields for entering these values.  But These values are NEVER displayed for blog posts.

I’m 99.9% sure I’ll be removing these fields for blog posts so in part, this question is a warning.  However if someone has an extremely compelling reason to keep them for blog posts, speak up now or forever hold your peace.

3. Would you find the ability to run Subtext off of another database such as MySql or Firebird very important?

I know some users might like to save a few bucks and go with .NET and MySql hosting.  I’ve thought about implementing multiple database support, but don’t want to undertake such a big task if there is no demand. 

Even if there is demand, it’d have to be overwhelming for me to consider doing it sooner rather than later.

Thanks! That’s all for now. I appreciate your responses.

What others have said

Requesting Gravatar... vern Sep 16, 2006 3:31 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No. (Does MySql have stored procs yet? Kind of a moot point if not)
Requesting Gravatar... Jörg Sep 16, 2006 3:58 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. Never ;)
Requesting Gravatar... haacked Sep 16, 2006 4:04 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
@Vern: Well if we wanted to support MySql or Firebird etc... THen we'd move away from Stored Procs and evaluate NHibernate etc...

So it's not exactly a moot point.
Requesting Gravatar... Dave Sussman Sep 16, 2006 5:17 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Currently using .Text but plan to move to subText:

1. No
2. No
3. No

That was easy.
Requesting Gravatar... Paul Edwards Sep 16, 2006 6:14 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No.
Requesting Gravatar... Simone Chiaretta Sep 16, 2006 6:56 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1) No
2) No
3) No - but moving to NHibernate could be a cool idea :-)

I never understood what that field was about :)
Requesting Gravatar... vern Sep 16, 2006 10:01 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Yeah, you lost me there.

See, NHibernate sounds to me like something for energy savings.

Who comes up with this stuff?

I'm ASSuming MySql has NHibernate?
Requesting Gravatar... James Avery Sep 16, 2006 10:27 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. Nope.
2. Nope.
3. No plans, but I think you would see a ton of benfits from moving to NHibernate. You would drastically reduce the amount of code you have (including getting rid of all those icky stored procedures).

-James
Requesting Gravatar... Adam Sep 16, 2006 10:32 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No
Requesting Gravatar... John Sep 16, 2006 11:15 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. Nope
2. Nope
3. NHibernate is goofy!
Requesting Gravatar... jayson knight Sep 16, 2006 1:39 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
@Vern:

NHibernate is an ORM system for .Net (ported from Java's Hibernate)...conceptually it's similar to LLBLGEN.

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHibernate

Basically it allows applications (in theory at least) to be database agnostic. Personally I'm not a huge fan of ORM systems, but I'm slowly warming up to them.
Requesting Gravatar... Stefano Demiliani Sep 16, 2006 2:04 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1) No
2) No
3) No
Phil, I think that an aspect where you've to work a lot is to improve the antispam filters.
Requesting Gravatar... Wyatt Barnett Sep 16, 2006 2:36 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1) Yes, for articles.
2) No, but I have no idea what they were for either.
3) There are other dbs aside from MsSql? I would argue that 99.5% of all .NET hosting has MsSql options avaliable, especially now with Sql Express 2005 being the vast improvement on MSDE it is.
Requesting Gravatar... Bill Graziano Sep 16, 2006 2:59 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. SQL Server Express is just as free as MySql. I happen to like stored procedures but then I'm a DBA.
Requesting Gravatar... andrex Sep 16, 2006 3:10 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No
NHibernate - NO
Requesting Gravatar... Scott Watermasysk Sep 16, 2006 4:22 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
FYI, Source Name/Url where put in .Text to support the RSS Source element. Probably a good idea for re-syndication, but generally useless when composing new posts. See: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#ltsourcegtSubelementOfLtitemgt
Requesting Gravatar... Michael Eaton Sep 16, 2006 6:28 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No

NHibernate is cool, but what's that old saying? Oh yea...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;-)
Requesting Gravatar... Dave Sep 16, 2006 6:35 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. Do you use the Title URL field?

Actually, I would like to use this field for posts that I want to mark as obsolete. It would be nice if I could use this field to redirect incoming requests to a page that says "This post has been removed." That way readers would not get a broken link. Of course, I'm probably in the minority here because I often write stuff I later wish I had not written ;)

2. Do you ever enter values for Source Name and Source Url for a blog post?

No. I can't figure out how they apply to posts.

3. Would you find the ability to run Subtext off of another database such as MySql or Firebird very important?

Maybe... This is not a high priority item for me, but I think it would expand the Subtext audience. It would also possibly reduce hosting costs for some people if they could use MySQL. MySQL is usually free, while MS SQL has a cost.
Requesting Gravatar... Dave Sep 16, 2006 6:36 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
@ScottW: Thanks for the clarification! Much appreciated.
Requesting Gravatar... Gurkan Yeniceri Sep 17, 2006 5:06 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No, If we ever publish a Mono version, we can think of MySql (thugh its a remote poddibility at this point.).
Requesting Gravatar... Gurkan Yeniceri Sep 17, 2006 8:01 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
muhahahhaha "poddibility" nice word. Which means something that can be podcastable Smile

I was trying say "possibility"
Requesting Gravatar... Damien Guard Sep 18, 2006 5:23 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No


NHibernate - open to ORM's but rather not use NHibernate.

[)amien
Requesting Gravatar... Mariuz Sep 18, 2006 5:29 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
About nr3 question
I guess it would be nice for users to host the subtext on oss databases like mysq/fiebird . It can open an gate to host on
other platforms like macosx, linux, solaris ,*bsd (you name it)
and decrease the cost (no license fees)

ps: you can start coding over an DAL (database access layer)
to be independent of database bellow
I have seen something like this on php (http://adodb.sourceforge.net/)
Don't know if there is something like that in .net
Requesting Gravatar... Mariuz Sep 18, 2006 5:36 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Forgot one point :
both mysql and firebird do have stored procedures :)
postgresql too

Story added to digg

http://digg.com/programming/Would_you_find_the_ability_to_run_Subtext_on_Firebird_Mysql_important
Requesting Gravatar... mike h Sep 18, 2006 10:24 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No
Requesting Gravatar... Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP] Sep 18, 2006 11:14 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1 - No
2 - No
3 - No

=)
Requesting Gravatar... Arian Kulp Sep 18, 2006 2:35 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
ORM might also be served by switching to .NET 3.0's LINQ (Language InLine Queries). Remember that 3.0 is really just 2.0 with some additions, so it wouldn't really be an overall porting effort. DLINQ (the database integration) gives you ORM in code using attributes and typesafe classes. Then you can embed object-based queries in the code (very slick). Behind the scenes, the language code is translated into RDBMS-specific queries (code queries != DB queries) with no extra preprocessor step. This gives a pretty clean separation between the two, and you can even use stored procs behind the scenes if you need to. Once you try code integrated queries, you won't want to go back!

Disclaimer: I wrote the hands-on labs for LINQ/DLINQ/XLINQ for the last PDC. Also, I haven't used NHibernate, though I know that it solves the same problem.
Requesting Gravatar... Haacked Sep 18, 2006 2:40 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Thanks Arian! So your are saying DLINQ will work with other databases then? Do you have a list of supported DBs?
Requesting Gravatar... Arian Kulp Sep 18, 2006 6:54 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
At the time, I was under the impression that it was based on the ADO.NET provider model so would be pretty portable. I'm not 100% sure how to achieve that portability though as all of my content was using SQL Server 2005 (of course!). Microsoft pitches it as relevant to "SQL Server, Oracle, or MySQL as well as LDAP, WMI, or another data store for which specialized logic may be needed." It is supposed to be pretty open-ended. The downside here, of course, is not all ISP's will support it immediately when it goes gold, but I always shy away from 3rd party solutions when the built-in one works. Considering that it isn't available yet could affect the decision, but is it critical enough that it can't wait for a more informed decision? I'm not pushing one way or another -- just food for thought.
Requesting Gravatar... Haacked Sep 18, 2006 7:04 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Well I'm not in any rush based on the responses I've seen here. However, if I am the one who has to write a provider for Firebird or MySql to get LINQ to work with those databases, then this is not a solution if portability becomes a higher priority.

My whole point is something like NHibernate already includes support for those databases, leaving me to focus on data access. In any case, I plan to play around with LINQ for a bit anyways to get a feel for it.
Requesting Gravatar... Damien Guard Sep 19, 2006 6:54 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Arian where have you read that LINQ will form part of .NET 3.0?

LINQ is sheduled for C# 3.0 however .NET 3.0 as its RC currently stands is .NET 2.0 + WinFX and doesn't include LINQ.

[)amien
Requesting Gravatar... Steve Harman Sep 19, 2006 9:41 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Going back to the original question at hand (late, as usual)...

1. No
2. No
3. Yes - I've actually had a few colleagues who were interested in subTEXT until they found out that they'd need to run atop MSSQL Server. They were what I would call our "target users" - wanted to host on their own equipment - and they had access to Windows Server, but not SQL Server. They had hoped to be able to run against a MySQL (or other _free_) backend data store.

Of course, I tried to interest them in getting involved with the project and building a MySQL Provider (we do suffer from a little Premature Generalization in that area) but I was apparently unconvincing.

At any rate, I would like to see us support portability so that we can attract (and hold onto) those who wish to use the other db options that are available. Plus, it will help when it comes time to support subTEXT on Mono.
Requesting Gravatar... mike Sep 19, 2006 2:49 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. No

Thanks for asking for input!
Requesting Gravatar... Mauricio Quiros Sep 19, 2006 4:57 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. Totally, and that's 2 versions one without Stored Procedures (MySql 4.#.# and below)and one with stored procedures support for MySql 5 and above. And I think That would be easy to move to PostgresSQL from there.

Then NHibernate will make Subtext more complex and that would scared some people - like me, believe me, I like the description in the homepage of subtext too! Simplicity - I think SubText should have their own data access methods maybe with a pluggable provider model where we can switch easily between databases. And where you can easily modified de code or help some others find problems, I don’t want to learn a whole new framework like NHibernate or go deep into their class library.

In the other hand I will never use any new upcoming technologies from Microsoft(LINQ, ATLAS ETC, Dont get me wrong, I like MS but I like the idea of an open world) I Think asp.net is already rich enough to handle what SubText need to do, I think mono support will be a really cool thing here. So less dependencies the better however It is just my opinion.



Requesting Gravatar... MJG Sep 20, 2006 4:31 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1) No
2) No
3) No

If you are looking to rid oneself of unused features, what about killing articles and instead allowing us to indicate on a blog post whether to show the whole posting on the blog page/rss feed or just use an abstract on the blog/feed and link to the whole blog post?

Seems to me this would totally eliminate the need for articles and still give people the freedom to go either way (abstracts or full posts).
Requesting Gravatar... Haacked Sep 20, 2006 4:35 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
There is a checkbox when adding a feed to syndicate the description only. That should do part of what you want. There's no support for it in the Metablog API so we'd have to figure something out for that.
Requesting Gravatar... Wiennat Sep 23, 2006 10:48 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1 No
2 No
3 Absolutely yes - I have a my own blogging software but I want to use Subtext instead. Unfortunately, my host's MSSQL cost is very expensive. But I can use MySQL for free. I think there're many people are in my situation.

Actually, I tried to create a MySQL provider for .Text. But I gave up when I saw a lot of stored procs. It's very complex to convert it all to raw SQL statement.

If there is anyone want to create a MySQl/Firebird/SQLite or MS Access provider for SubText, I can help.

PS. Sorry for poor English.
Requesting Gravatar... you've been HAACKED Oct 27, 2006 11:27 AM
# What Feature Should Be Removed?
What Feature Should Be Removed?
Requesting Gravatar... MindShift May 14, 2007 3:47 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
Just starting to look at subText and my host is one of many who charges more for MSSQL but does have MySQL available dirt cheap.

I don't know anything about NHibernate but when I was looking at Hibernate for a Java application I discovered Ibatis(ibatis.apache.org) which is also available now on the .NET platorm and provides Object to SQL or Stored procedure mapping.

Easy to use and found lots of Hibernate users switching to it!
Requesting Gravatar... Marcel Jul 27, 2007 7:21 AM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
1. No
2. No
3. Yes please. My hoster is also one that charges a lot more for MSSQL than MySQL. And yes, I know MSSQL Express editions, but hosting the database myself is not an desirable option.
Requesting Gravatar... Angry Hacker Aug 16, 2007 12:49 AM
# The Blog Manifesto
The Blog Manifesto
Requesting Gravatar... Scott Mar 13, 2008 5:07 PM
# re: A Few Questions For Subtext Users
YES
NO
OF COURSE! - The fact that this software does not utilize multiple DB's is almost criminal. Every other blog out there does. PLUS 99& of the web hosts out there do NOT CHARGE for MySQL. While THEY ALL charge for MSSQL. It just makes sense. This is why all the major brands of blogs use MySQL. Much wider audience will be available. If you just want to narrow your target audience to .net developers who run their own servers...then you're doing well.

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